A week or two ago I talked with Martin Gedde-Dahl, whose piece on the ideological foundations of Trumpism is out in the Norwegian weekly Morgenbladet. It’s paywalled and anyway would have to be translated for my non-Norwegian followers, but here’s a key passage about the foundational speech delivered by libertarian theorist and right-wing ideologue Murray Rothbard at a meeting of the John Randolph Club in 1992 (the translation here is mine):
You are so right that the hard right/fascist right is disingenuous when pretending, and they are pretending childishly, to want a civil debate, Evan. Keep reminding us until the shunning becomes our default mode.
"I utterly lack the energy. Of course Vie was entirely right in his critique, and Choi and company were typically disingenuous and wrong. I’m not saying there’s no point in calling out and refuting right-wing lies—quite the opposite. But rushing to debunk every piece of right-wing agitprop is a hopeless waste of energy. Fascists do not deserve respectful, considered reply—they deserve the cold shoulder."
I've read many of the links from your articles and agree absolutely with their current diagnosis of the right. My issue with the anti-fascists is their solution will end up a total diaster in some other way. I'm around lots of people from various sections of American society and what is certain is class unity is dead. Look at political breakdown at each income level. More so the political furvor of roughly of each politely is so where many would nuke their own to get everyone by them they hated. Impervious to doubt of their righteousness in the "correct" society, government, economic system that must be forced on all. Oblivious to the crazy web of links that puts them all at the mercy of their opposites at various nodes of the modern systems they take for granted yet are too important to go without. The power centers of this nation tend to be insanely stratified regardless of political pursasion. For me the entire main journalism field lost all semblance of creditability when after the Iraq boondoggle not a single pro war journalist lost their job but a few brave ones who predicted diaster did. In any healthy society the entire newsrooms of those outlets should be exiled entirely from upper society. Ironically nationalist should have been leading the charge for the disgrace brought on the country, instead of their rear guard. The complete compilation of the Obama administration to hold financial leaders responsible for 2008 seems to be glossed over completely. The ability of the CIA, NHS, FBI to go from public enemy number 1 merely 10 years to running defense for democracy reinforced the notion of the total divide between the elites in business, finance, government, foreign policy, NSA, FBI, CIA, politics, journalism, media, tech, media, academia and everyone was on full display during the director of NPR hilarious display of what really matters to her during her house visit last week. When the anti-fascists gain control in their excuberance their elites will use democracy to further pull the band back the other way all under a guise of never again. It will break in horrible ways. Without a total decimation of the elites of both facist and anti fascists the ying yang will continue until the links of nation states, capitalism, government all break. I cannot see a way for this to happen in our current political economy and world alignment in anything other than chaos, yet unless the elite problem in all areas above are handled simultaneously. I guess nationally, globally I'm a nihilist. I reject the world of the card right is bringing in and I reject the world anti-fascist will bring in following them. My only cares, loyalty, are too my family/friend group. A size just about what many first hunter/gather groups were.
I don't know what anti-fascist "solution" you are referencing. I don't know anti-fascists to be in agreement about anything except opposing fascism.
You're describing a type of zealous, self-righteous, dogmatic person that I'm sure exists, but that I don't find to be dominant or even really typical on the Left.
The politics of Mark Ames is closest to my views. I take extreme issue with absolutism I see when talking to most people of the left or right today. It's so damn black&white thinking. All this crap is downstream of the of the elites in this country. The leadership of the democratic party complete moral bankruptcy is only slightly less horrible than the Republicans. What they value, care about, and want action on is nearly as ludicrous as the Republicans. At the end of the day, unless there is a wholesale change democratic party that is more progressive in materially, more conservative cultural, and much less imperialist internationally I don't see how things won't keep getting worse. What seems most important to them currently is there ability to play around with other countries. The amount of our countries assets owned by foundations, endowments, non-profits is way more massive than anyone would believe. I saw it for myself when I was a tax auditor. Guess how much tax gets paid when 60% of these private equity, hedge fund owners are these types? Not a whole lot. Guess how much money these foundations spend on international projects and vital they are to projecting international soft power? Absolutely vital. So when the most important things to our democratic and centrist elites is this international shit, and a vital part are these foundations and endowments that not only own a significant amount of us assets, derive income of them that is ultimately taxed very little and dependent to a high degree on the financial services industry. How is any of this conductive to major structural changes that are required to attain better material conditions for the masses? It can't be done. Everything that can be done would be smoke and mirrors, minor, and easily undone. So for any change to happen something significant and drastic must happen at top. I thought trump 1 might have lit a fire for change but no, the party keeps doubling down in stupid to preserve what they value most. Something must happen for that elite that control the democratic to completely fracture and burn, so there is at least a chance of something long lasting positive being created
It may be due to working next the state capital so long I've seen hundreds of protest, have had windows broken, and then have had to deal with them. They certainly all dogmatic but enough of them are and the ones who are tended to make a strong impression on me. I guess anti-fascists stroke a negative cord because in 2020 people describing themselves as that found it necessary to throw rocks at me, break our windows when I told them they couldnt just sit at our outdoor tables without purchase.
Overall with the current global economy, global politics, cultures I can't see much of anything worthwhile in either party that will materially make those I care lives better.
So what is your recommendation in America where, due to my bars placement, every 2-4 years I have one part trying to silence in totality another portion. I've banned all politics but it won't last. Each side wants total destruction of each other and no compromise will appease. At this point I pray for both sides to implode.
You are so right that the hard right/fascist right is disingenuous when pretending, and they are pretending childishly, to want a civil debate, Evan. Keep reminding us until the shunning becomes our default mode.
"I utterly lack the energy. Of course Vie was entirely right in his critique, and Choi and company were typically disingenuous and wrong. I’m not saying there’s no point in calling out and refuting right-wing lies—quite the opposite. But rushing to debunk every piece of right-wing agitprop is a hopeless waste of energy. Fascists do not deserve respectful, considered reply—they deserve the cold shoulder."
I've read many of the links from your articles and agree absolutely with their current diagnosis of the right. My issue with the anti-fascists is their solution will end up a total diaster in some other way. I'm around lots of people from various sections of American society and what is certain is class unity is dead. Look at political breakdown at each income level. More so the political furvor of roughly of each politely is so where many would nuke their own to get everyone by them they hated. Impervious to doubt of their righteousness in the "correct" society, government, economic system that must be forced on all. Oblivious to the crazy web of links that puts them all at the mercy of their opposites at various nodes of the modern systems they take for granted yet are too important to go without. The power centers of this nation tend to be insanely stratified regardless of political pursasion. For me the entire main journalism field lost all semblance of creditability when after the Iraq boondoggle not a single pro war journalist lost their job but a few brave ones who predicted diaster did. In any healthy society the entire newsrooms of those outlets should be exiled entirely from upper society. Ironically nationalist should have been leading the charge for the disgrace brought on the country, instead of their rear guard. The complete compilation of the Obama administration to hold financial leaders responsible for 2008 seems to be glossed over completely. The ability of the CIA, NHS, FBI to go from public enemy number 1 merely 10 years to running defense for democracy reinforced the notion of the total divide between the elites in business, finance, government, foreign policy, NSA, FBI, CIA, politics, journalism, media, tech, media, academia and everyone was on full display during the director of NPR hilarious display of what really matters to her during her house visit last week. When the anti-fascists gain control in their excuberance their elites will use democracy to further pull the band back the other way all under a guise of never again. It will break in horrible ways. Without a total decimation of the elites of both facist and anti fascists the ying yang will continue until the links of nation states, capitalism, government all break. I cannot see a way for this to happen in our current political economy and world alignment in anything other than chaos, yet unless the elite problem in all areas above are handled simultaneously. I guess nationally, globally I'm a nihilist. I reject the world of the card right is bringing in and I reject the world anti-fascist will bring in following them. My only cares, loyalty, are too my family/friend group. A size just about what many first hunter/gather groups were.
I don't know what anti-fascist "solution" you are referencing. I don't know anti-fascists to be in agreement about anything except opposing fascism.
You're describing a type of zealous, self-righteous, dogmatic person that I'm sure exists, but that I don't find to be dominant or even really typical on the Left.
The politics of Mark Ames is closest to my views. I take extreme issue with absolutism I see when talking to most people of the left or right today. It's so damn black&white thinking. All this crap is downstream of the of the elites in this country. The leadership of the democratic party complete moral bankruptcy is only slightly less horrible than the Republicans. What they value, care about, and want action on is nearly as ludicrous as the Republicans. At the end of the day, unless there is a wholesale change democratic party that is more progressive in materially, more conservative cultural, and much less imperialist internationally I don't see how things won't keep getting worse. What seems most important to them currently is there ability to play around with other countries. The amount of our countries assets owned by foundations, endowments, non-profits is way more massive than anyone would believe. I saw it for myself when I was a tax auditor. Guess how much tax gets paid when 60% of these private equity, hedge fund owners are these types? Not a whole lot. Guess how much money these foundations spend on international projects and vital they are to projecting international soft power? Absolutely vital. So when the most important things to our democratic and centrist elites is this international shit, and a vital part are these foundations and endowments that not only own a significant amount of us assets, derive income of them that is ultimately taxed very little and dependent to a high degree on the financial services industry. How is any of this conductive to major structural changes that are required to attain better material conditions for the masses? It can't be done. Everything that can be done would be smoke and mirrors, minor, and easily undone. So for any change to happen something significant and drastic must happen at top. I thought trump 1 might have lit a fire for change but no, the party keeps doubling down in stupid to preserve what they value most. Something must happen for that elite that control the democratic to completely fracture and burn, so there is at least a chance of something long lasting positive being created
It may be due to working next the state capital so long I've seen hundreds of protest, have had windows broken, and then have had to deal with them. They certainly all dogmatic but enough of them are and the ones who are tended to make a strong impression on me. I guess anti-fascists stroke a negative cord because in 2020 people describing themselves as that found it necessary to throw rocks at me, break our windows when I told them they couldnt just sit at our outdoor tables without purchase.
Overall with the current global economy, global politics, cultures I can't see much of anything worthwhile in either party that will materially make those I care lives better.
I don't know how to describe this but capitalist and communist both want a fascist end to anyone who disagrees with them what then?
I don't see a specter of communism looming anywhere today. I'm unsure what communists you're referring to.
So what is your recommendation in America where, due to my bars placement, every 2-4 years I have one part trying to silence in totality another portion. I've banned all politics but it won't last. Each side wants total destruction of each other and no compromise will appease. At this point I pray for both sides to implode.
In terms of managing bar patrons, I don't really have anything helpful to offer.